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Thread: Guns pointed at your head + VT shootings.

  1. #41
    Twitch123 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by x[con] View Post

    Not true. We learned 2 things:

    1. Iraq didn't have WMD.
    2. Not everyone is cut out for democracy. We will keep that in mind.

  2. #42
    Twitch123 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatMan View Post
    Insane argument and the biggest tell regarding where your head's at. For you to even suggest that preemptive actions have no basis in reality, proves you don't live in it.
    Preemptive action is fine when it's justified and you've got the proof to back it up. Faulty intelligence which is now admitted is what got us into this. What's going to get us out who knows?

    Now the Cuban Missile Crisis that's a prime example of preemptive action being used properly and justly. The intelligence was good and the men at the helm were watching out for the best interests of everyone. They got the photographs and presented them to the U.N. and made a case.

    This time around the intelligence was bad and the men at the helm were poor leaders at best. See a pattern developing here? Good intelligence and good men = good results. Bad intelligence and poor leaders = bad results. It's sad we are stuck in Iraq due to the poor decision making of a select few people.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twitch123 View Post
    Preemptive action is fine when it's justified and you've got the proof to back it up. Faulty intelligence which is now admitted is what got us into this. What's going to get us out who knows?

    Now the Cuban Missile Crisis that's a prime example of preemptive action being used properly and justly. The intelligence was good and the men at the helm were watching out for the best interests of everyone. They got the photographs and presented them to the U.N. and made a case.

    This time around the intelligence was bad and the men at the helm were poor leaders at best. See a pattern developing here? Good intelligence and good men = good results. Bad intelligence and poor leaders = bad results. It's sad we are stuck in Iraq due to the poor decision making of a select few people.

    That wasn't even a pre-emptive attack. We found out about it then blockaded the Cuba. We didn't land troops and occupy Cuba. That's Diplomacy! Not a shot was fired.

    If you do a pre-emptive attack, guess what, YOU are starting the war, YOU are the aggressor nations. Lets look back on other aggressor nations and see where they are today.

    Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome, Napoleonic France, Prussia, Germany in WWII, Iraq in the Gulf War 1.

    Oh shit, do you see a trend yet?

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeatMan View Post
    Point(s) proven.

    thanks!
    Points proven how?

    You continuously prove that you are insane.

    Ever drink a beer Meat? You must be a fucking Alcoholic then. Dumbass.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by x[mr.bitch] View Post
    That wasn't even a pre-emptive attack. We found out about it then blockaded the Cuba. We didn't land troops and occupy Cuba. That's Diplomacy! Not a shot was fired.
    Actually, the entire US military was on high alert. Our fighter bomber fleet moved to Florida with over 100 tactical nukes ready to go. The entire strategic bomber fleet was getting ready to nuke the Soviets. We had an invasion force massed in Florida.

    The Soviets had a submarine floatilla near Cuba armed with nuclear torpedos. Their order was to use them on the invasion fleet.

    In this case, the Soviets were wisely afraid of us and pulled back.

    Saddam was too stupid to know when to quit poking at us.

    Quote Originally Posted by x[mr.bitch] View Post
    If you do a pre-emptive attack, guess what, YOU are starting the war, YOU are the aggressor nations. Lets look back on other aggressor nations and see where they are today.

    Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome, Napoleonic France, Prussia, Germany in WWII, Iraq in the Gulf War 1.
    Ancient Greece - glorious 1500 year run, including the Byzentine empire. Laid the foundation of Roman Empire and made the west what it is today.

    Ancient Rome - 600 year run, not counting the Byzentine empire. It started to decline when it stopped being aggressive starting in the 3rd century AD

    Napoleonic France - military genius, poor politician, didn't know when to quit

    Prussia - don't know much about this one

    Nazi Germany - led by a brilliant politician but a poor military man. Didn't know when to quit.

    Quote Originally Posted by x[mr.bitch] View Post
    Oh shit, do you see a trend yet?
    Yes. The declines were due to 2 reasons:

    1. stopped being aggressive in the case of Roman Empire
    2. picked on empires that are larger than itself
    Trust me. I know what I am doing.

    -- Sledge Hammer

  6. #46
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    Forces were on High Alert at all times during the Cold War, it still wasn't a pre-emptive strike. We still didn't invade or occupy Cuba.



    P.S.

    The other trend would be that they aren't around anymore.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by x[mr.bitch] View Post
    Forces were on High Alert at all times during the Cold War, it still wasn't a pre-emptive strike. We still didn't invade or occupy Cuba.
    Oh no no no, this was a different high alert. This was army troops ready to board transports for an invasion high alert. Sort of like the D-day invasion.

    We didn't invade because the Soviets backed down. The world was very close to a full nuclear exchange during the crisis. The Soviets recognized that they have nothing to gain by keep demanding the installation of their missiles on Cuba. We had absolute advantage in the number of nukes and the methods of delivering them. They would come out the biggest loser in the conflict.

    But yes, I understand your point. It was resolved diplomatically, backed by sheer brute force and the terror of our nuclear arsenal.

    Saddam for some odd reason didn't understand the concept of backing down. Look at Libya. Khadafi knew when to back down and say he wants to play ball. Relations between us are normalizing. We didn't need to invade Libya. It was a diplomatic victory for the Bush administration. And Khadafi played ball after he saw we invaded Iraq.

    Quote Originally Posted by x[mr.bitch] View Post
    P.S.

    The other trend would be that they aren't around anymore.
    They burned themselves out because they expanded too fast or got away for what got them there in the first place, like the Roman Empire. Romans were successful when they discriminated the barbarians, butchered them, slaughtered them, used them for slaves, and all sorts of acts that we would consider barbaric today. They began to accept more non Romans to be citizens and be in their military in the 3rd century. That's when the downfall started. The barbarians assimilated Rome, rather than the other way around.

    The American Empire won't stick around forever. No one ever suggested that. But a pre-emptive strike won't be the cause of our downfall. Our downfall will be from getting away from our roots, which is self reliance, as specified in the Constitution. That's another thread's worth of discussion.
    Trust me. I know what I am doing.

    -- Sledge Hammer

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    Self-Reliance vs Globalization IS another good topic to start.

    Wow, this one has Veered off course.

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    I'm really good at hijacking threads.
    Trust me. I know what I am doing.

    -- Sledge Hammer

  10. #50
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    I'll actually blame this one on crazy ass Meatman by somehow relating VT shootings and how to react to a crazed gunman vs. a preemptive invasion of a soveriegn country.

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    Typical liberal... it's always someone elses fault. "Society" made you do it, huh?
    For God's sake, be a man. Grow up and take responsibility for your own actions.

    By the way, I guess you weren't aware that we over-flew Cuba with nuke carrying
    bombers, had all kinds of missles pointed at them, had their little island surrounded
    by warships, and I guess you never heard of the "Bay of Pigs" fiasco. I guess
    you were stoned at school that day.

  12. #52
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    Meat/Con, I would vote for you guys if you ever ran for anything.
    You should be on the '08 ticket
    "....everyone wants to come to my house to RAGE."

  13. #53
    Twitch123 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by x[lonewolf] View Post
    Meat/Con, I would vote for you guys if you ever ran for anything.
    You should be on the '08 ticket
    WTF are you nuts?? They'd want to nuke the rest of the world and expect it to do nothing back. I could hear Meats speech now for his reasons.

    "My fellow Americans...I've decided to declare war on the rest of the world. Mostly because I think they are backwards savages and for no other reasons other than that. So we are going to launch all of our nuclear weapons at the same time. To the rest of the world I expect you to do nothing while the nukes rain down. If you do we'll nuke you again...."


  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeatMan View Post
    Typical liberal... it's always someone elses fault. "Society" made you do it, huh?
    For God's sake, be a man. Grow up and take responsibility for your own actions.

    By the way, I guess you weren't aware that we over-flew Cuba with nuke carrying
    bombers, had all kinds of missles pointed at them, had their little island surrounded
    by warships, and I guess you never heard of the "Bay of Pigs" fiasco. I guess
    you were stoned at school that day.


    Bay of Pigs was before the Cuban Missile Crisis.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twitch123 View Post
    WTF are you nuts?? They'd want to nuke the rest of the world and expect it to do nothing back. I could hear Meats speech now for his reasons.

    "My fellow Americans...I've decided to declare war on the rest of the world. Mostly because I think they are backwards savages and for no other reasons other than that. So we are going to launch all of our nuclear weapons at the same time. To the rest of the world I expect you to do nothing while the nukes rain down. If you do we'll nuke you again...."
    nah. That wouldn't be fair to the decent people in the world who are
    simply victims of their blood thirsty insane governments. But, if I could get
    every single member of some of the worlds governments along with all the
    terrorists and genocidal warlord dictators in one spot out in the middle of
    nowhere all at the same time... you could bet your ass I would

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeatMan View Post
    nah. That wouldn't be fair to the decent people in the world who are
    simply victims of their blood thirsty insane governments. But, if I could get
    every single member of some of the worlds governments along with all the
    terrorists and genocidal warlord dictators in one spot out in the middle of
    nowhere all at the same time... you could bet your ass I would
    Yeah, but now we have learned that some people aren't ready for democracy and freedom. Some people need to be oppressed. We Americans believe freedom is the one single right that everyone should have, even at the risk of security. That's not so in many parts of the world. Some people believe security comes first, even at the risk of losing freedom.

    I think you should refine your statement to say "genocidal warlord dictators who invade other countries..." We are fine if they only oppress their own people.

    Saddam was fine until he invaded Kuwait.

    Hitler was fine until he invaded Poland.

    Those African warlords are just fine and dandy until they invade their neighbors.

    The former Indonesian (or Malaysian) despot did a fine job to keep his people in line and not bother others.

    We have a problem with terrorists who want to bomb us. We are fine with terrorists who bomb their own people over there.
    Trust me. I know what I am doing.

    -- Sledge Hammer

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    This one has been way derailed.... Closing. Start a new thread to keep it going
    i7 2600K + ATI 6990

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